Comments on: Open Sources, Closed Goals http://www.beatniksoftware.com/blog/?p=58 drowning in relativism. Wed, 31 Dec 2008 22:22:41 -0800 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: eet http://www.beatniksoftware.com/blog/?p=58&cpage=1#comment-21999 eet Fri, 06 Apr 2007 15:16:32 +0000 http://www.beatniksoftware.com/blog/?p=58#comment-21999 Tracker is even more experimental than Gimmie, so I see no good reason for that. Tracker is even more experimental than Gimmie, so I see no good reason for that.

]]> By: Bryan http://www.beatniksoftware.com/blog/?p=58&cpage=1#comment-21979 Bryan Thu, 05 Apr 2007 18:00:38 +0000 http://www.beatniksoftware.com/blog/?p=58#comment-21979 I have to say it really pisses me off that you claim some kind of private conspiracy on our (and by our or Red Hat you really mean me) part. I first approached about Gimmie and how we could work together back in the begining of February. I tried to learn about what you were doing and start working together on your mailing list... oh but wait you don't have one. Then during our conversation Jeff Waugh offered to set it up for you on gnome.org which you had never done because you thought it was too difficult. Where is the Gimmie mailing list? I don't know what the issue was setting it up, but there still isnt' one. How do we contribute? Do I have to hunt you down on IRC every time? Here's our mailing list, anyone can join and participate http://groups.google.com/group/mugshot Here's our wiki where all the Big Board information is online and updated, anyone can create an account and begin working there http://developer.mugshot.org/wiki/ So tell me Alex, what was the Mugshot team, and by that I mean me, supposed to do? Should I have tried calling your cell phone? Is it my job to hunt you down so we can start trying out some ideas we have? I was open from the begining, I even have our first IRC chat logged if you don't remember how I was trying to get hooked into the Gimmie project (to which there is no way to participate unless you can find orph on IRC). The fact that you are trying to make me look like some kind of idea stealing, project stomping, backstabbing asshole pisses me off to no end and I appreciate you actually being honest about what happened. I have to say it really pisses me off that you claim some kind of private conspiracy on our (and by our or Red Hat you really mean me) part. I first approached about Gimmie and how we could work together back in the begining of February. I tried to learn about what you were doing and start working together on your mailing list… oh but wait you don’t have one. Then during our conversation Jeff Waugh offered to set it up for you on gnome.org which you had never done because you thought it was too difficult. Where is the Gimmie mailing list? I don’t know what the issue was setting it up, but there still isnt’ one. How do we contribute? Do I have to hunt you down on IRC every time?

Here’s our mailing list, anyone can join and participate
http://groups.google.com/group/mugshot

Here’s our wiki where all the Big Board information is online and updated, anyone can create an account and begin working there
http://developer.mugshot.org/wiki/

So tell me Alex, what was the Mugshot team, and by that I mean me, supposed to do? Should I have tried calling your cell phone? Is it my job to hunt you down so we can start trying out some ideas we have?

I was open from the begining, I even have our first IRC chat logged if you don’t remember how I was trying to get hooked into the Gimmie project (to which there is no way to participate unless you can find orph on IRC). The fact that you are trying to make me look like some kind of idea stealing, project stomping, backstabbing asshole pisses me off to no end and I appreciate you actually being honest about what happened.

]]> By: Robert Devi http://www.beatniksoftware.com/blog/?p=58&cpage=1#comment-21950 Robert Devi Wed, 04 Apr 2007 22:10:05 +0000 http://www.beatniksoftware.com/blog/?p=58#comment-21950 @orph Havoc has stated that he doesn't see much overlap and that BigBoard is just a prototype so don't be so worried about intentional offense. Just talk to him directly now that you have his attention. @Havoc I think you're missing some things. While the GUIs might be quite different, both panel/sidebar/dock implementations share many of the same concepts. So *if* it's possible for some low level unification to happen (even with SLAB), it would be a good thing and help unify the GNOME platform (think GNOME 3.0) and allow for other types of panels suitable for other types of environments (e.g. cell phone-sized screens). Here's a question for both of you. Couldn't something like tracker be used as a common backend and common plugin interface? Before you dismiss this out of hand, consider this. There's no reason that temporary data or people couldn't be considered files plus metadata in a virtual file system. This would allow for other types of entities that you didn't even account for such as IP telephony (with directory and usage status support) integration to be instantly available for all panel objects in their personalization/people sections once the appropriate tracker plugin is created. @orph
Havoc has stated that he doesn’t see much overlap and that BigBoard is just a prototype so don’t be so worried about intentional offense. Just talk to him directly now that you have his attention.

@Havoc
I think you’re missing some things. While the GUIs might be quite different, both panel/sidebar/dock implementations share many of the same concepts. So *if* it’s possible for some low level unification to happen (even with SLAB), it would be a good thing and help unify the GNOME platform (think GNOME 3.0) and allow for other types of panels suitable for other types of environments (e.g. cell phone-sized screens).

Here’s a question for both of you. Couldn’t something like tracker be used as a common backend and common plugin interface? Before you dismiss this out of hand, consider this. There’s no reason that temporary data or people couldn’t be considered files plus metadata in a virtual file system. This would allow for other types of entities that you didn’t even account for such as IP telephony (with directory and usage status support) integration to be instantly available for all panel objects in their personalization/people sections once the appropriate tracker plugin is created.

]]> By: Colin Walters http://www.beatniksoftware.com/blog/?p=58&cpage=1#comment-21948 Colin Walters Wed, 04 Apr 2007 21:41:29 +0000 http://www.beatniksoftware.com/blog/?p=58#comment-21948 I followed up here: http://cgwalters.livejournal.com/ Doesn't seem like pingback is working so doing it manually. I followed up here: http://cgwalters.livejournal.com/

Doesn’t seem like pingback is working so doing it manually.

]]> By: Not the same thing http://www.beatniksoftware.com/blog/?p=58&cpage=1#comment-21945 Not the same thing Wed, 04 Apr 2007 20:29:01 +0000 http://www.beatniksoftware.com/blog/?p=58#comment-21945 The only really solid complaint is the "why didn't they tell me so we could make common API" one. They wanted control, but if they'd "contributed" by muscling in and taken your project in directions you didn't want, or forked it, you would have had an even bigger gripe. Given that, the rest of your complaints are "it would have been polite to go the extra mile". I think you both owe each other an apology, if you're interested in making nice; and if not, the community will survive. The only really solid complaint is the “why didn’t they tell me so we could make common API” one. They wanted control, but if they’d “contributed” by muscling in and taken your project in directions you didn’t want, or forked it, you would have had an even bigger gripe. Given that, the rest of your complaints are “it would have been polite to go the extra mile”.

I think you both owe each other an apology, if you’re interested in making nice; and if not, the community will survive.

]]> By: Havoc Pennington http://www.beatniksoftware.com/blog/?p=58&cpage=1#comment-21942 Havoc Pennington Wed, 04 Apr 2007 16:43:47 +0000 http://www.beatniksoftware.com/blog/?p=58#comment-21942 The bottom line for me is that there's no clear way these projects are in fact the same thing or could be combined while preserving the core ideas being tried out in each one. If other people do see such a clear way, then let's see it - that's all part of the prototyping process. Draw a picture, or say "this file can go over here and we put this patch in here and that's how the code will now work." Better yet, show us the code, though that isn't required. In the meantime, it's just people saying "one is a panel/sidebar/dock thing, the other is a panel/sidebar/dock thing, so it's the same" - or something. Frankly when Bryan told me Alex was freaking out a few weeks ago, I was more surprised than anything else. The bottom line for me is that there’s no clear way these projects are in fact the same thing or could be combined while preserving the core ideas being tried out in each one.

If other people do see such a clear way, then let’s see it – that’s all part of the prototyping process. Draw a picture, or say “this file can go over here and we put this patch in here and that’s how the code will now work.” Better yet, show us the code, though that isn’t required.

In the meantime, it’s just people saying “one is a panel/sidebar/dock thing, the other is a panel/sidebar/dock thing, so it’s the same” – or something. Frankly when Bryan told me Alex was freaking out a few weeks ago, I was more surprised than anything else.

]]> By: Evan http://www.beatniksoftware.com/blog/?p=58&cpage=1#comment-21941 Evan Wed, 04 Apr 2007 15:05:39 +0000 http://www.beatniksoftware.com/blog/?p=58#comment-21941 Alex seems already to have received a fair amount of support here, so I'm just going to add my own voice to the cacophony to say that I agree with you. Some people seem to have fixated on what Red Hat is obligated---legally, as far as I can tell---to do, and I think that that misses the point entirely. I think what Alex is talking about here is polite behavior in a community. A good neighbor does not walk into your garage and take your lawn mower because he needs it, even if he is legally allowed to do so. A good neighbor asks to borrow it; a great neighbor then returns the lawn mower with a full tank of gas without having to be asked to do so. I know the metaphor is weak, but I'm sticking to it. Nice work, Alex. Stiff upper lip and all that. ^^ Alex seems already to have received a fair amount of support here, so I’m just going to add my own voice to the cacophony to say that I agree with you. Some people seem to have fixated on what Red Hat is obligated—legally, as far as I can tell—to do, and I think that that misses the point entirely. I think what Alex is talking about here is polite behavior in a community. A good neighbor does not walk into your garage and take your lawn mower because he needs it, even if he is legally allowed to do so. A good neighbor asks to borrow it; a great neighbor then returns the lawn mower with a full tank of gas without having to be asked to do so. I know the metaphor is weak, but I’m sticking to it.

Nice work, Alex. Stiff upper lip and all that. ^^

]]> By: John (J5) Palmieri http://www.beatniksoftware.com/blog/?p=58&cpage=1#comment-21940 John (J5) Palmieri Wed, 04 Apr 2007 14:35:35 +0000 http://www.beatniksoftware.com/blog/?p=58#comment-21940 I think it is unfair to say it was developed in private. There is an open wiki and mailing list and I believe Big Board was a culmination of discussions held at the last Boston GNOME summit. A lot of people did not "get" mugshot at first and so I think they just dismissed it and didn't join in which is why Havoc's post sounds like something brand new. The fact is what you had was a bunch of developers who just stuck their heads down and did what they do best, develop. They weren't looking at the politics or trying to map out a mine field of peoples personalities. They just wanted to push the envelope and had the resources to do so. If gimmi and mugshot get embroiled in some sort of emotional flamewar I think I will lose faith in the GNOME community. There are issues to work out, certainly but it is not something that should become a quagmire for GNOME. I think it is unfair to say it was developed in private. There is an open wiki and mailing list and I believe Big Board was a culmination of discussions held at the last Boston GNOME summit. A lot of people did not “get” mugshot at first and so I think they just dismissed it and didn’t join in which is why Havoc’s post sounds like something brand new. The fact is what you had was a bunch of developers who just stuck their heads down and did what they do best, develop. They weren’t looking at the politics or trying to map out a mine field of peoples personalities. They just wanted to push the envelope and had the resources to do so. If gimmi and mugshot get embroiled in some sort of emotional flamewar I think I will lose faith in the GNOME community. There are issues to work out, certainly but it is not something that should become a quagmire for GNOME.

]]> By: anonymous http://www.beatniksoftware.com/blog/?p=58&cpage=1#comment-21939 anonymous Wed, 04 Apr 2007 14:09:42 +0000 http://www.beatniksoftware.com/blog/?p=58#comment-21939 HP has a history of doing that kind of crap, remember the Inti (http://sources.redhat.com/inti/) project fiasco ? HP has a history of doing that kind of crap, remember the Inti (http://sources.redhat.com/inti/) project fiasco ?

]]> By: C. http://www.beatniksoftware.com/blog/?p=58&cpage=1#comment-21938 C. Wed, 04 Apr 2007 13:52:12 +0000 http://www.beatniksoftware.com/blog/?p=58#comment-21938 [[off topic, don't read if you don't to---]] Hi, I'm using the Gimmie packaged on Feisty Fawn and I just wanted to thank you; it's very interesting and incorporates everything I love about the Mac OS X interface in a very different and GNOME-like package. Of course there are a few things mainly keyboard focus issues--eg., if I type then search automatically, rather than having to move my mouse into the text box, clicking, then search and not updating when new programs are installed unless I restart Gimmie but I know these'll be fixed one day. They're very minor. I'm not quite sure how to use tracker yet (b/c of the difficulty of nautilus integration currently, I guess I'll wait till GNOME or Ubuntu integrates it) but I know it's extremely promising. Thanks to the both of you (and other) developers for doing all this great stuff for GNOME and the free desktop. C [[off topic, don't read if you don't to---]]

Hi,
I’m using the Gimmie packaged on Feisty Fawn and I just wanted to thank you; it’s very interesting and incorporates everything I love about the Mac OS X interface in a very different and GNOME-like package. Of course there are a few things mainly keyboard focus issues–eg., if I type then search automatically, rather than having to move my mouse into the text box, clicking, then search and not updating when new programs are installed unless I restart Gimmie but I know these’ll be fixed one day. They’re very minor.

I’m not quite sure how to use tracker yet (b/c of the difficulty of nautilus integration currently, I guess I’ll wait till GNOME or Ubuntu integrates it) but I know it’s extremely promising.

Thanks to the both of you (and other) developers for doing all this great stuff for GNOME and the free desktop.
C

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